{"id":281292,"date":"2021-06-22T20:00:58","date_gmt":"2021-06-22T17:00:58","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/en.buradabiliyorum.com\/a-career-spanning-conversation-film\/"},"modified":"2021-06-22T20:00:58","modified_gmt":"2021-06-22T17:00:58","slug":"a-career-spanning-conversation-film","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/a-career-spanning-conversation-film\/","title":{"rendered":"#A Career-Spanning Conversation \u2013 \/Film"},"content":{"rendered":"

“#A Career-Spanning Conversation \u2013 \/Film<\/strong>”<\/p>\n

\n

\"Willem<\/p>\n

Willem Dafoe<\/strong>\u00a0wants to see my face.<\/p>\n

During a Zoom call, the video is not working at the start of the interview. Finally, once Dafoe and I connect face-to-face, he explains, \u201cIt\u2019s important.\u201d And it is<\/em> important. Seeing how someone reacts, what lights them up, or what disinterests them, matters during an interview. When you\u2019re interviewing Dafoe, you\u2019re talking to a real conversationalist, somebody who feels completely present. You want to see that, not just hear it.<\/p>\n

The interview is for the actor\u2019s sixth collaboration with\u00a0Abel Ferrara<\/strong>,\u00a0Siberia<\/strong><\/em>. It\u2019s a dream, or nightmare, of a film. It\u2019s tricky to put into words or boxes. It\u2019s a dream narrative you\u2019re reacting to, not consciously analyzing. In other words, another project well-suited to Dafoe\u2019s app<\/a>roach to performing, which as he told us, isn\u2019t about calculation, but intuition.
\nTruly, acting is reacting for Dafoe.<\/p>\n

When did you first meet Abel?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I knew Abel, as they say, from the neighborhood. I was working downtown as a theater director. I was making movies<\/a>, and I was aware of him. Also, Abel would always put out feelers for lots of different actors for the same role in the early days so, I was often hearing from Abel but it was never happening. I think my first meeting with him was at a bar called 3 Roses on Canal Street, which was a working-class bar for all the sweatshop workers during the day. I think he set the meeting for like 11:30 at night, and that\u2019s the first time I met him [Laughs].<\/p>\n

What was your first impression of reading the script for Siberia<\/em>?<\/strong>
\nI mean, what script for Siberia<\/em>? I don\u2019t want to be jokey about that but it\u2019s not a traditional work process. Abel approaches me, this is six times we\u2019ve worked together so we\u2019re always in touch. Abel bounces around some images, some thoughts, and we don\u2019t really work\u2026 Some sections are written with the help of his writer, Chris Soyce<\/strong>, or him but mostly we\u2019re working from a scenario, and then we\u2019re feathering details into it. Some of the most written stuff is either taken from other sources or improvised. So it\u2019s not a traditional script, it\u2019s more like a proposition for certain situations in certain locations. And then once we get to them, it starts to come together. It\u2019s not a traditional script where everybody puts pen to paper, it\u2019s a series of scenarios, images, kicking things around casting costumes. It\u2019s very organic.<\/p>\n

So is that exciting on the day?<\/strong><\/p>\n

It is. This film you\u2019re working basically in three different countries on a relatively small budget. We had to plan some steps, so it\u2019s not like we just show up and figure stuff out, but there\u2019s a degree of that. And always working with Abel, we know each other well so we can work flexibly, but it\u2019s always a brand of there\u2019s a degree of guerrilla filmmaking in there. Not traditional coverage, not a traditional script. We\u2019re hitting with our instincts and with our interests.<\/p>\n

Where do you start imagining how a character like Clint should move and behave?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I\u2019m not thinking about that so much. No, because that\u2019s all handed to me by the situation. I mean, I\u2019ve got nothing to sell, I\u2019ve got nothing to interpret. I\u2019m trying to put myself in the lap of the experience and then have it work on me. And in this case, that\u2019s exactly what that odyssey is. It\u2019s an unconventional movie in the fact that there\u2019s not a traditional narrative, so you\u2019re basically doing things and then reacting to it.
\nI\u2019m dealing with people that are speaking another language. I don\u2019t understand them. I don\u2019t understand the language, but I have to try to dig deep to try to relate to them. When I have an encounter with someone, we\u2019re doing it and seeing what happens. It\u2019s set up, we know exactly where it\u2019s going to go, there\u2019s a certain degree throwing the dice. And that can happen in this movie because that\u2019s what the movie is. It\u2019s about confronting certain situations in certain places and fragments of memories. So, to prepare was mostly about making the fabric of these events, and choosing props, and working with the dogs, and that sort of thing.<\/p>\n

This reminds me, I was reading a conversation between you and Abel where you have this quote I liked, which is, \u201cI don\u2019t have to understand it to play it.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n

You understand anything you do. I mean, you can\u2019t be conscious of consciousness. You\u2019ve got to become consciousness, and that\u2019s the name of the game<\/a> with performing. Don\u2019t get me wrong, I don\u2019t want it to sound touchy-feely, I\u2019m very conscious of what mark has to be accomplished, it\u2019s not like I\u2019m there expecting to get hit by lightning. I\u2019m measuring lots of things but I don\u2019t have a rigid expectation. I\u2019ve tried to see what\u2019s around me and see how I feel about it and see what I\u2019m going to do about it and that\u2019s basically what\u2019s going on in this movie. I mean, there\u2019s a cave up there, I\u2019m down here, I\u2019ve got the dogs, I got to get to that cave, it\u2019s all practical. And then of course, between Abel and I, we figure out the best way to approach that.<\/p>\n

Those environments must give you so much, too.<\/strong><\/p>\n

It conditions everything. That\u2019s why we responded to these extreme environments because they\u2019re characters, they\u2019re part of the dialogue.<\/p>\n

Do you still get a lot of joy out of, like in this instance, being in these incredible environments?<\/strong>
\nNo, it\u2019s beautiful. I mean, it\u2019s opportunity, opportunity, opportunity. But that\u2019s part of our work designing these situations where we feel that opportunity to explore something, to have something happen to us.<\/p>\n

You also asked Abel once, which was telling to me, do I still surprise you?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I did. I was probably teasing him but listen, we have a good rapport. I always enjoy being in his company, it\u2019s not always easy but deep down he\u2019s a very warm-hearted, sweet guy, and has a deep instinct for cinema. I appreciate that.<\/p>\n

It seems like there\u2019s one misconception about your collaborations is that people seem to assume there\u2019s some kind of psychotherapy going on, right?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Well, look, between Tommaso<\/em> and Siberia<\/em>, there are elements of biography. Tommaso<\/em> quite frankly is very autobiographical for Abel, but I\u2019m playing him and many things are also abstracted. So it\u2019s not therapy, it\u2019s just the old story. We\u2019re talking about the stuff we know about or stuff that has happened to us. It\u2019s not to work something out, it\u2019s just we\u2019re dealing with worlds we know, and we\u2019re trying to examine them and play with them. And I think to that degree if that\u2019s therapy, so be it. These are personal films, but they also have nothing to do with us because we\u2019re playing characters and we\u2019re creating invented situations. So the answer to that is yes and no.<\/p>\n

But does that ever happen for you, where playing a character or movie is therapeutic in some way?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Listen, anytime you take a walk in someone else\u2019s shoes you challenge your sense of who you are is going to be some sort of\u2026 Not therapeutic because therapeutic is a loaded word but there\u2019s got to be some sort of introspection or measuring your sense of who you are, either abandoning it or challenging it. For me, performing is so much about not reinforcing who you are, but getting away from who you are. Not that I have problems with who I am, I think, this whole idea that the personality we present to the world is a construct that we shouldn\u2019t lean on because that\u2019s a dead end. Because then we have habitual responses and we lose the spark of life. We take ourselves out of the swirl of change, the swirl of creation, the swirl of what really is going on underneath all this stuff that people live by, we want to tap into that, and to tap into that you have to abandon your loyalty to yourself and imagine a loyalty to another created self.<\/p>\n

Even though you want to abandon yourself, are there characters that felt very close to you?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Yeah. Sometimes you think, well, if my life was different, I could be this guy. It depends on the kind of performing, the kind of film. I was really struck when I did a film many years ago called Light Sleeper<\/em>, a Paul Schrader movie. I played a white-collar drug dealer, basically. And that\u2019s not my story, I don\u2019t live in that world but I thought if my life was different, I could be this guy. So occasionally you relate or you imagine that things could have been different.<\/p>\n

There are directors you\u2019ve worked with many times, like Abel, Paul Schrader, Wes Anderson, or Julain Schnabel, who, and I mean this in a positive way, are characters. What attracts you to filmmakers with slightly bigger personalities?<\/strong><\/p>\n

You love to be with people that are fun to be around and challenge you and are interesting original thinkers, or have an energy that you know you want to kick it up. You know you want to make something and to be with someone that has a reason for making things, has a stake. A guy like Paul Schrader or Abel, they\u2019re very different people but Wes Anderson or Marty Scorsese, all these guys they live and breathe cinema in a funny way. That sounds kind of corny, but they\u2019ve dedicated themselves to this form and I just love being around them because I also enjoy it. I enjoy performing, and I enjoy making things. So yeah, I think I like being around the guys that aren\u2019t just polite professionals.<\/p>\n

Years ago, we talked about this in regards to Oliver Stone. You said, \u201cI don\u2019t mind when the heat gets turned up.\u201d What does that bring out of you?<\/strong><\/p>\n

It\u2019s just tension. It\u2019s tension. Everything drops away and you have a kind of superhuman awareness. You\u2019re engaged in a way that\u2019s not normal life. And naturalism or not, I think for all performances it\u2019s that double thing of, you\u2019ve got to be absolutely receptive and relaxed but you also have to be aware of a kind of tension that exists. Be cool as you\u2019re walking across that floor but the floor is covered in broken glass. To take those two opposing things is where we live somehow, and I think that elevates your awareness and elevates your stake in what you\u2019re doing.<\/p>\n

That doesn\u2019t mean that everything has to be overly dramatic or artificially pumped up, but it sharpens your commitment and sharpens your senses to be more like an animal, more responsive, intuitive, reacting with a kind of logic. That\u2019s not interpreted, it\u2019s actual. So when you\u2019re doing something, you\u2019re not showing it, you\u2019re not displaying it, you\u2019re involved in it. You\u2019re doing it, the world drops away. I\u2019ve always said, I feel more like a dancer than an actor because I live through my body, I live through my voice, I live through my senses and you\u2019ve got to find a way to make them super aware so you can receive and react. And that\u2019s what performing is always about for me.<\/p>\n

Speaking of animals, characters like Bobby Peru from Wild at Heart<\/em> or Jopling from The Grand Budapest<\/em>, have very animalistic qualities. How do you decide on how to use your voice and body in those instances?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t want to belabor this animal thing, but there are the two things that you mentioned, there are two examples where an external thing made me feel different, made me look different. I invited that and it suggested a different way of being. When you take that leap away from yourself, that\u2019s when things happen and you start to not depend on your understanding of the world but you actually get propelled into something that is new to you, something where you\u2019re awake. That\u2019s the story, to be awake and to allow things to happen to you without a rigid conditioned response. You\u2019re not always getting ahead of yourself, you\u2019re not trading something, you\u2019re living the life.<\/p>\n

You\u2019re not saying if I do this, I\u2019ll get that. You\u2019re doing this to do this. And philosophically, I think that\u2019s the biggest lesson for me anyway about performing. When you\u2019re doing this to do this and you surrender to that and you give to that, then you stick your finger into the pulse of what\u2019s really going on. If you say, well, if I show that the character does this then they\u2019ll think this, that can work and that can be beautiful, and some people are very good at it. I don\u2019t not admire that, but it\u2019s not a talent that I have.<\/p>\n

The thing that I like much more is throwing myself into it and then trying to figure it out through not a predetermined thing because if it\u2019s predetermined you\u2019d never put yourself in that position. It\u2019s too far away from what you know, but if you do this enough you start to develop a sense of that\u2019s a good place to be, not a bad place to be. It\u2019s kind of like, if you can go toward the pain, you can survive it. If you\u2019re afraid of the pain, you\u2019re always pulling away from it then you\u2019ll have a much more limited experience.<\/p>\n

On the other side of pain, what about joy? When you look at your work in Shadow of a Vampire<\/em> or with Wes Anderson, that looks like an actor having a very good time.<\/strong><\/p>\n

It is joy. And it\u2019s the joy of play, it\u2019s the joy of being a child, let\u2019s pretend. Everyone turns up their nose at the word pretend, but on some level, that\u2019s what we do. And when you can do it without that transactional thing, doing this to get that, then it\u2019s something alive and it doesn\u2019t have to do with you. It\u2019s like you\u2019re getting out of the way for something to happen. If you\u2019re controlling it too much then it\u2019s like, I\u2019m all for rehearsal, all for preparing but then I\u2019m also all for dropping that once you get in a moment. So don\u2019t get me wrong, I\u2019m not like a guy that just is like, eh, whatever, I\u2019m cool, let\u2019s just do it, man. No, I prepare and do whatever it takes to help me pretend, but once I\u2019m in that pretend mode, then you can tap into something that will stay home no matter how they cut it, no matter how they shoot it because it\u2019s authentic.<\/p>\n

This is all making me think about one performance, in particular, just such the incredible responsibility of playing Jesus Christ. What was unique about that experience?<\/strong><\/p>\n

That one was very particular. It was a very reactive character and the whole idea was he didn\u2019t want to be Jesus Christ. He wasn\u2019t Jesus Christ. He was, but he wasn\u2019t. And so that was trying to find that human aspect and that\u2019s a good example actually, I\u2019ve wanted to forget about my responsibilities or the responsibilities that came with that character. Also, a similar thing with Van Gogh. I put myself in the hands of painting on that one, and the hands of his words because he was so prolific in his letter writing, I was able to read maps and paintings with what he was writing, and then I was in the place where he was making it. So that was an extraordinary opportunity to let the land, let the words, let the painting speak to me, and work through you.<\/p>\n

You said those are two experiences that have stayed with you. I once saw you, just in a second, hunch and lean your jaw forward like Jopling in-person. Instant transformation. Do these characters stay at your fingertips in a way or do they leave you?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I think it goes away because what really makes the characters is the situation. Characters are born out of the situation but what you do is you learn certain things. I mean, you learn certain things. Playing Jesus, you learn certain things about forgiveness. To play Van Gogh you learn certain things about being the spirit. I am the spirit. I mean, he was a very spiritual guy and he was always trying to touch the source of all creation in his painting. He was trying to be a part of the swirl, the movement that makes your beard grow, that makes your body without your will function, the very heart of creation. Something about what he expressed in the painting turned me into that and that\u2019s exciting and that\u2019s something I\u2019ll keep with me all my life.<\/p>\n

At this point in your career, how do you define success?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I try not to think about success. Sometimes things work for you, sometimes things are successful for you and they aren\u2019t for other people. Real success I suppose is opportunity, being able to have opportunities over and over and over again. Opportunities to continue to do what you love to do and go deeper into what you do. I suppose that\u2019s it because it\u2019s certainly not about the traditional things that we think of as success. And also, you know this too, it\u2019s nice when people like your stuff but one man\u2019s meat is another man\u2019s poison. It\u2019s amazing how some beautiful films are so maligned and some bad films are so appreciated. So, you can\u2019t get into that game. Yes, it doesn\u2019t mean I live above that because I don\u2019t, I\u2019m totally aware and totally hoping that I have commercial success with a movie and all that like everybody. Success is sleeping well at night.<\/p>\n

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Source<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

“#A Career-Spanning Conversation \u2013 \/Film” Willem Dafoe\u00a0wants to see my face. During a Zoom call, the video is not working at the start of the interview. Finally, once Dafoe and I connect face-to-face, he explains, \u201cIt\u2019s important.\u201d And it is important. Seeing how someone reacts, what lights them up, or what disinterests them, matters during…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":281293,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"fifu_image_url":"https:\/\/d13ezvd6yrslxm.cloudfront.net\/wp\/wp-content\/images\/willemdafoe-siberia-shadow-christ.jpg","fifu_image_alt":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[17],"tags":[1568,1570,23147,10294,2004,93083,24872,72234,41268,8564],"class_list":["post-281292","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-social-mediaa","tag-featured-stories-sidebar","tag-features","tag-interview","tag-interviews","tag-martin-scorsese","tag-oliver-stone","tag-paul-schrader","tag-siberia","tag-wes-anderson","tag-willem-dafoe"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/281292","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=281292"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/281292\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/281293"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=281292"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=281292"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=281292"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}