{"id":327438,"date":"2021-08-18T21:31:47","date_gmt":"2021-08-18T18:31:47","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/en.buradabiliyorum.com\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/"},"modified":"2021-08-18T21:31:47","modified_gmt":"2021-08-18T18:31:47","slug":"murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/","title":{"rendered":"#Murray Sinclair on reconciliation, anger, unmarked graves\u2014and a headline for this story"},"content":{"rendered":"<div id=\"ez-toc-container\" class=\"ez-toc-v2_0_85 counter-hierarchy ez-toc-counter ez-toc-custom ez-toc-container-direction\">\n<p class=\"ez-toc-title\" style=\"cursor:inherit\">Table of Contents<\/p>\n<label for=\"ez-toc-cssicon-toggle-item-6a3d36a49d2e3\" class=\"ez-toc-cssicon-toggle-label\"><span class=\"\"><span class=\"eztoc-hide\" style=\"display:none;\">Toggle<\/span><span class=\"ez-toc-icon-toggle-span\"><svg style=\"fill: #dd3333;color:#dd3333\" xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\" class=\"list-377408\" width=\"20px\" height=\"20px\" viewBox=\"0 0 24 24\" fill=\"none\"><path d=\"M6 6H4v2h2V6zm14 0H8v2h12V6zM4 11h2v2H4v-2zm16 0H8v2h12v-2zM4 16h2v2H4v-2zm16 0H8v2h12v-2z\" fill=\"currentColor\"><\/path><\/svg><svg style=\"fill: #dd3333;color:#dd3333\" class=\"arrow-unsorted-368013\" xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\" width=\"10px\" height=\"10px\" viewBox=\"0 0 24 24\" version=\"1.2\" baseProfile=\"tiny\"><path d=\"M18.2 9.3l-6.2-6.3-6.2 6.3c-.2.2-.3.4-.3.7s.1.5.3.7c.2.2.4.3.7.3h11c.3 0 .5-.1.7-.3.2-.2.3-.5.3-.7s-.1-.5-.3-.7zM5.8 14.7l6.2 6.3 6.2-6.3c.2-.2.3-.5.3-.7s-.1-.5-.3-.7c-.2-.2-.4-.3-.7-.3h-11c-.3 0-.5.1-.7.3-.2.2-.3.5-.3.7s.1.5.3.7z\"\/><\/svg><\/span><\/span><\/label><input type=\"checkbox\"  id=\"ez-toc-cssicon-toggle-item-6a3d36a49d2e3\" checked aria-label=\"Toggle\" \/><nav><ul class='ez-toc-list ez-toc-list-level-1 ' ><li class='ez-toc-page-1 ez-toc-heading-level-4'><a class=\"ez-toc-link ez-toc-heading-1\" href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/#Q_Im_speaking_with_you_at_what_seems_like_a_critical_moment_in_the_project_of_reconciliation_But_if_you_compare_this_to_other_moments_that_seemed_like_flashpoints_in_the_past_does_this_feel_different\" >Q: I\u2019m speaking with you at what seems like a critical moment in the project of reconciliation. But if you compare this to other moments that seemed like flashpoints in the past, does this feel different?<\/a><\/li><li class='ez-toc-page-1 ez-toc-heading-level-4'><a class=\"ez-toc-link ez-toc-heading-2\" href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/#Q_Is_it_frustrating_that_people_havent_opened_their_eyes_to_it_until_now\" >Q: Is it frustrating that people haven\u2019t opened their eyes to it until now?<\/a><\/li><li class='ez-toc-page-1 ez-toc-heading-level-4'><a class=\"ez-toc-link ez-toc-heading-3\" href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/#Q_The_conversation_about_the_deaths_of_Indigenous_children_strikes_me_as_an_especially_difficult_one_to_have_with_kids_How_do_you_speak_with_your_grandchildren_about_this\" >Q: The conversation about the deaths of Indigenous children strikes me as an especially difficult one to have with kids. How do you speak with your grandchildren about this?<\/a><\/li><li class='ez-toc-page-1 ez-toc-heading-level-4'><a class=\"ez-toc-link ez-toc-heading-4\" href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/#Q_There_is_resilience_but_theres_also_understandably_a_sense_of_righteous_anger_You_talked_about_not_giving_into_frustration_but_not_everybody_reacts_that_way_And_youve_been_critical_about_certain_expressions_of_anger_like_the_toppling_of_statues_What_do_you_find_unhelpful_about_that\" >Q: There is resilience but there\u2019s also, understandably, a sense of righteous anger. You talked about not giving into frustration, but not everybody reacts that way. And you\u2019ve been critical about certain expressions of anger, like the toppling of statues. What do you find unhelpful about that?<\/a><\/li><li class='ez-toc-page-1 ez-toc-heading-level-4'><a class=\"ez-toc-link ez-toc-heading-5\" href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/#Q_Youve_spoken_about_how_Indigenous_peoples_understanding_of_their_own_victimization_has_affected_the_way_that_they_think_about_reconciliation_What_does_that_look_like\" >Q: You\u2019ve spoken about how Indigenous people\u2019s understanding of their own victimization has affected the way that they think about reconciliation. What does that look like?<\/a><\/li><li class='ez-toc-page-1 ez-toc-heading-level-4'><a class=\"ez-toc-link ez-toc-heading-6\" href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/#Q_In_terms_of_the_work_that_non-Indigenous_Canadians_have_to_do_what_do_you_think_about_the_balance_between_what_can_seem_like_shallow_symbolic_acts_on_one_hand%E2%80%94like_statements_on_social_media_or_wearing_orange_T-shirts%E2%80%94and_doing_things_that_could_make_a_more_tangible_difference\" >Q: In terms of the work that non-Indigenous Canadians have to do, what do you think about the balance between what can seem like shallow symbolic acts on one hand\u2014like statements on social media or wearing orange T-shirts\u2014and doing things that could make a more tangible difference?<\/a><\/li><li class='ez-toc-page-1 ez-toc-heading-level-4'><a class=\"ez-toc-link ez-toc-heading-7\" href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/#Q_How_do_you_bring_that_home_to_people\" >Q: How do you bring that home to people?<\/a><\/li><li class='ez-toc-page-1 ez-toc-heading-level-4'><a class=\"ez-toc-link ez-toc-heading-8\" href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/#Q_Speaking_of_Sir_John_A_Macdonald_what_do_you_think_of_the_calls_to_remove_commemorations_of_him_from_the_public_square\" >Q: Speaking of Sir John A. Macdonald, what do you think of the calls to remove commemorations of him from the public square?<\/a><\/li><li class='ez-toc-page-1 ez-toc-heading-level-4'><a class=\"ez-toc-link ez-toc-heading-9\" href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/#Q_The_first_Indigenous_governor_general_was_just_appointed_Do_you_think_its_possible_to_use_a_role_so_deeply_imbued_with_colonialism_to_advance_reconciliation\" >Q: The first Indigenous governor general was just appointed. Do you think it\u2019s possible to use a role so deeply imbued with colonialism to advance reconciliation?<\/a><\/li><li class='ez-toc-page-1 ez-toc-heading-level-4'><a class=\"ez-toc-link ez-toc-heading-10\" href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/#Q_Youve_spent_your_own_career_operating_within_colonial_systems%E2%80%94in_law_the_judiciary_and_Parliament_Today_youre_mentoring_young_Indigenous_lawyers_who_are_perhaps_on_the_same_path_What_are_the_merits_of_changing_systems_from_within\" >Q: You\u2019ve spent your own career operating within colonial systems\u2014in law, the judiciary and Parliament. Today you\u2019re mentoring young Indigenous lawyers who are perhaps on the same path. What are the merits of changing systems from within?<\/a><\/li><li class='ez-toc-page-1 ez-toc-heading-level-4'><a class=\"ez-toc-link ez-toc-heading-11\" href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/#Q_I_think_some_people_struggle_to_hold_these_two_ideas_together_in_their_minds%E2%80%94that_a_system_can_be_racist_but_that_it_can_also_be_used_as_a_tool_for_change\" >Q: I think some people struggle to hold these two ideas together in their minds\u2014that a system can be racist but that it can also be used as a tool for change.<\/a><\/li><li class='ez-toc-page-1 ez-toc-heading-level-4'><a class=\"ez-toc-link ez-toc-heading-12\" href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/#Q_Are_you_hopeful_that_there_is_enough_pressure_now_for_the_hard_policy_work_to_happen\" >Q: Are you hopeful that there is enough pressure now for the hard policy work to happen?<\/a><\/li><li class='ez-toc-page-1 ez-toc-heading-level-4'><a class=\"ez-toc-link ez-toc-heading-13\" href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/#Q_Its_a_sad_state_of_affairs_if_youre_calling_on_the_government_to_be_as_efficient_about_reconciliation_as_it_was_about_assimilation\" >Q: It\u2019s a sad state of affairs if you\u2019re calling on the government to be as efficient about reconciliation as it was about assimilation.<\/a><\/li><\/ul><\/nav><\/div>\n<p>&#8220;<strong>#Murray Sinclair on reconciliation, anger, unmarked graves\u2014and a headline for this story<\/strong>&#8221;<\/p>\n<div>\n                <em>I caught up with Murray Sinclair, the former chairman of the Indian Residential Schools Truth and Reconciliation Commission, in the midst of a national reckoning over this summer\u2019s discovery of hundreds of gravesites where Indigenous children are believed to be buried.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>Sinclair has spent the bulk of his career considering such injustices: first as a successful lawyer, then as the first Indigenous judge on Manitoba\u2019s provincial and superior courts, and most recently as a senator. He retired from the Senate early this year, just after his 70th birthday.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>Our conversation ran overtime and ran the gamut: from his thoughts on reconciliation to his talks with his grandchildren; from the concept of victimization to the legacy of Sir John A. Macdonald; from the role of a governor <a href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/category\/general\/\" data-internallinksmanager029f6b8e52c=\"3\" title=\"General\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">general<\/a> to his new three-wheeler. The interview, below, has been edited and condensed for space and clarity.<\/em><\/p>\n<h4><span class=\"ez-toc-section\" id=\"Q_Im_speaking_with_you_at_what_seems_like_a_critical_moment_in_the_project_of_reconciliation_But_if_you_compare_this_to_other_moments_that_seemed_like_flashpoints_in_the_past_does_this_feel_different\"><\/span>Q: I\u2019m speaking with you at what seems like a critical moment in the project of reconciliation. But if you compare this to other moments that seemed like flashpoints in the past, does this feel different?<span class=\"ez-toc-section-end\"><\/span><\/h4>\n<p><strong>A:<\/strong> Not really, no. The reality is that there has been conflict going on within Canada pretty much from the early \u201970s, when I first started thinking about going to law school, until now. These issues have taken on a regular importance, and I think the regularity of it perhaps is increasing a bit, and the magnitude seems to be larger for most people, but I think the reality is that these have always been large issues.<\/p>\n<p>Even though there\u2019s heightened awareness now about what h<a href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/category\/download-scripts-themes-apps\/\" data-internallinksmanager029f6b8e52c=\"9\" title=\"Download Scripts &amp; Themes &amp; Apps\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">app<\/a>ened in the residential school system, a lot of the information was already known. Six years ago, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) offered a detailed account of how Indigenous children and families were treated.<\/p>\n<p>We weren\u2019t the first ones. In fact, I keep reminding people that this evidence about children dying in the schools and being improperly handled after death was revealed in a report done in 1907, by Peter Bryce. And when he wrote this report he was told to basically cover it up and he wouldn\u2019t. Then he was fired.<\/p>\n<h4><span class=\"ez-toc-section\" id=\"Q_Is_it_frustrating_that_people_havent_opened_their_eyes_to_it_until_now\"><\/span>Q: Is it frustrating that people haven\u2019t opened their eyes to it until now?<span class=\"ez-toc-section-end\"><\/span><\/h4>\n<p><strong>A:<\/strong> I don\u2019t get frustrated. I\u2019m sure others would be. And the reason I don\u2019t is because I know that frustration is a feeling of powerlessness. It just causes me to think that there\u2019s still more work that I have to do. And so it energizes me.<\/p>\n<h4><span class=\"ez-toc-section\" id=\"Q_The_conversation_about_the_deaths_of_Indigenous_children_strikes_me_as_an_especially_difficult_one_to_have_with_kids_How_do_you_speak_with_your_grandchildren_about_this\"><\/span>Q: The conversation about the deaths of Indigenous children strikes me as an especially difficult one to have with kids. How do you speak with your grandchildren about this?<span class=\"ez-toc-section-end\"><\/span><\/h4>\n<p><strong>A:<\/strong> Well, what\u2019s important is when they\u2019re really young we always give them a solid foundation about who they are. We make sure they know the history, the teachings, the ceremonies, their name, what their name means, their clan, what their clan is about. We give them that positive reinforcement right from the moment of their birth.<\/p>\n<p>And then we engage them by allowing them to listen to the stories of Elders. We wanted them to know those stories about what happened in the schools, but we were always sensitive to the fact that we needed to tell these stories to them in a careful way, so that they knew about the resilience of our people and about the strength that they still carry today. And that that strength is now a part of them.<\/p>\n<h4><span class=\"ez-toc-section\" id=\"Q_There_is_resilience_but_theres_also_understandably_a_sense_of_righteous_anger_You_talked_about_not_giving_into_frustration_but_not_everybody_reacts_that_way_And_youve_been_critical_about_certain_expressions_of_anger_like_the_toppling_of_statues_What_do_you_find_unhelpful_about_that\"><\/span>Q: There is resilience but there\u2019s also, understandably, a sense of righteous anger. You talked about not giving into frustration, but not everybody reacts that way. And you\u2019ve been critical about certain expressions of anger, like the toppling of statues. What do you find unhelpful about that?<span class=\"ez-toc-section-end\"><\/span><\/h4>\n<p><strong>A:\u00a0<\/strong>What it does is, it causes young people to focus their anger on revenge, on destruction and violence. And, as many Elders will tell you, it is causing our young people to begin to act like those who did this to us to begin with. And we can\u2019t go down that road because if we go down that road, then we will be no better than they are.<\/p>\n<p>We can declare a war of violence. We can lash out and we can cause harm to property, we can cause harm to people. We can cause harm to systems. We can shut down railroads. We can shut down highways. We can lock up and prevent people from entering or leaving buildings.<\/p>\n<p>But to what end does that really move us? Because the real issue will be: to what degree will those people who are then being victimized by us, by our young people, really want to sit down and talk to us about what they can do to help?<\/p>\n<h4><span class=\"ez-toc-section\" id=\"Q_Youve_spoken_about_how_Indigenous_peoples_understanding_of_their_own_victimization_has_affected_the_way_that_they_think_about_reconciliation_What_does_that_look_like\"><\/span>Q: You\u2019ve spoken about how Indigenous people\u2019s understanding of their own victimization has affected the way that they think about reconciliation. What does that look like?<span class=\"ez-toc-section-end\"><\/span><\/h4>\n<p><strong>A:\u00a0<\/strong>I think we ran the whole gamut from being totally forgiving to being totally confrontational. There are elements of the Indigenous community that are still living their victimization on a daily basis, which is that they don\u2019t speak out, they don\u2019t act out, they don\u2019t do anything to be demanding. They don\u2019t see their situation as a loss of rights, they see their situation as almost their fault. They see their poverty as their fault. It is about understanding one\u2019s own sense of victimization without being maudlin about it.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_1223484\" style=\"width: 610px\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" data-sizes=\"auto\" class=\"wp-image-1223484 lazyload\" src=\"https:\/\/www.macleans.ca\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/07\/MURRAY-SINCLAIR-SMITH-03.jpg\" alt=\"The honourable Murray Sinclair (Photograph by Skye Spence)Murray Sinclair (Photograph by Skye Spence)\" width=\"600\" height=\"769\"\/><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-caption-text\">(Photograph by Skye Spence)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<h4><span class=\"ez-toc-section\" id=\"Q_In_terms_of_the_work_that_non-Indigenous_Canadians_have_to_do_what_do_you_think_about_the_balance_between_what_can_seem_like_shallow_symbolic_acts_on_one_hand%E2%80%94like_statements_on_social_media_or_wearing_orange_T-shirts%E2%80%94and_doing_things_that_could_make_a_more_tangible_difference\"><\/span>Q: In terms of the work that non-Indigenous Canadians have to do, what do you think about the balance between what can seem like shallow symbolic acts on one hand\u2014like statements on social media or wearing orange T-shirts\u2014and doing things that could make a more tangible difference?<span class=\"ez-toc-section-end\"><\/span><\/h4>\n<p><strong>A:\u00a0<\/strong>My colleague Marie Wilson, one of the TRC commissioners, was always fond of saying that reconciliation is not a spectator sport. You have to do something. So, many people took that to heart and are doing something. Whatever it is, whether it\u2019s wearing a shirt or talking to their kids or sending money to a good Indigenous cause. They\u2019re doing something and those things are good.<\/p>\n<p>But those who have more power have more responsibility. So that means that everybody has to convince them to use their power wisely, to use their privilege wisely, to be more open to recognizing the impact that they can have.<\/p>\n<h4><span class=\"ez-toc-section\" id=\"Q_How_do_you_bring_that_home_to_people\"><\/span>Q: How do you bring that home to people?<span class=\"ez-toc-section-end\"><\/span><\/h4>\n<p><strong>A:\u00a0<\/strong>This is a situation where the perpetrator himself has to understand what they have done wrong, what they must do right and therefore take action in that way. I always tell people, imagine if the tables were turned in the sense that this had happened to you. If your children had been taken away. What would you want to do about that?<\/p>\n<p>Imagine if Donald Trump had had his way and took over Canada and then imposed his will on all Canadians and took away everything that he thought was not American enough. He could force us into his own sense of our status as second-class Americans.<\/p>\n<p>But I\u2019m also convinced that there\u2019s a population of people who will never want to reconcile. They will resist it to their dying day because they see this as an attack upon their sense of privilege, upon their sense of being. Sir John A. Macdonald, if he were here today, he would be fighting this tooth and nail.<\/p>\n<h4><span class=\"ez-toc-section\" id=\"Q_Speaking_of_Sir_John_A_Macdonald_what_do_you_think_of_the_calls_to_remove_commemorations_of_him_from_the_public_square\"><\/span>Q: Speaking of Sir John A. Macdonald, what do you think of the calls to remove commemorations of him from the public square?<span class=\"ez-toc-section-end\"><\/span><\/h4>\n<p><strong>A:\u00a0<\/strong>I think there\u2019s some merit to that. I had some conversation with the city of Kingston shortly after I was appointed as chancellor of Queen\u2019s University. They said, \u201cWe\u2019re debating whether to take down the statue of Sir John A. Macdonald in the middle of town.\u201d I said, \u201cI think you should take it down. I think you should put another plaque on it that explains his full role in the history of Canada. I would move it over to his gravesite and say: \u2018This is where he\u2019s buried, and long may he rest, and long may all of those things he thought rest.\u2019 \u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cWhat properly belongs in the middle of town in a statue is a commemoration to reconciliation, and what will that look like? That\u2019s what you should be thinking about.\u201d<\/p>\n<h4><span class=\"ez-toc-section\" id=\"Q_The_first_Indigenous_governor_general_was_just_appointed_Do_you_think_its_possible_to_use_a_role_so_deeply_imbued_with_colonialism_to_advance_reconciliation\"><\/span>Q: The first Indigenous governor general was just appointed. Do you think it\u2019s possible to use a role so deeply imbued with colonialism to advance reconciliation?<span class=\"ez-toc-section-end\"><\/span><\/h4>\n<p><strong>A:<\/strong> It\u2019s an open secret, I think, but people know that I was asked early on if I would allow my name to stand for nomination for governor general. And I said no. I\u2019m too old, first of all. And I want to spend time with my family. But I said I never was opposed to an Indigenous person becoming governor general. I said it\u2019s perfectly apt for us to think about it. The governor general should be the one to help repair the relationship between Indigenous people and the Crown. And the Crown is represented by human beings, but the Crown is really a nation, the British Empire, and so the question is: do we really want to be part of the British Empire anymore?<\/p>\n<p>I think that\u2019s a realistic question. But if there is merit to maintaining that relationship, then who better to carry out the Crown\u2019s obligations with regard to the treaties than an Indigenous person?<\/p>\n<h4><span class=\"ez-toc-section\" id=\"Q_Youve_spent_your_own_career_operating_within_colonial_systems%E2%80%94in_law_the_judiciary_and_Parliament_Today_youre_mentoring_young_Indigenous_lawyers_who_are_perhaps_on_the_same_path_What_are_the_merits_of_changing_systems_from_within\"><\/span>Q: You\u2019ve spent your own career operating within colonial systems\u2014in law, the judiciary and Parliament. Today you\u2019re mentoring young Indigenous lawyers who are perhaps on the same path. What are the merits of changing systems from within?<span class=\"ez-toc-section-end\"><\/span><\/h4>\n<p><strong>A:\u00a0<\/strong>I remember as a young law student going down to court, and just listening to the language and the tone that judges were using when it came to Indigenous people. I remember one judge saying: \u201cIt\u2019s about time you guys learned how to behave.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>When I came to the conclusion that I really didn\u2019t fit in, I went and spoke to a very important Elder in my life. He said to me, \u201cYou can quit, if you feel that it\u2019s hurting you.\u201d But he said: \u201cRemember this. You can go and become a carpenter\u201d\u2014because that\u2019s what I told him, I had skills working with wood\u2014\u201cbut no matter what it is that you do, you will always know law. People will always know that you know the law, and they will always come to you.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cWhat\u2019s wrong,\u201d he said, \u201cis that you\u2019ve spent all of your life to this point studying in that Western white man\u2019s system. You need to understand that your education is not finished now. You need now to learn what it means to be Anishinaabe. Once you\u2019ve learned what that means, then you will be a better lawyer.\u201d He said: \u201cMaybe you can help to change things.\u201d<\/p>\n<h4><span class=\"ez-toc-section\" id=\"Q_I_think_some_people_struggle_to_hold_these_two_ideas_together_in_their_minds%E2%80%94that_a_system_can_be_racist_but_that_it_can_also_be_used_as_a_tool_for_change\"><\/span>Q: I think some people struggle to hold these two ideas together in their minds\u2014that a system can be racist but that it can also be used as a tool for change.<span class=\"ez-toc-section-end\"><\/span><\/h4>\n<p><strong>A:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been accused many times over the course of my career of giving into the system and becoming part of the tools of oppression. And what I said to people was, talk to the others within the system and ask them: \u201cIs he really going along to get along?\u201d And they\u2019ll tell you: \u201cHe\u2019s not. He\u2019s causing a disturbance every day he walks in the office.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s the key. We have to make them uncomfortable with what they do, and we can\u2019t make them uncomfortable if they\u2019re sitting behind thick walls. Sometimes you\u2019ve got to go through the door to make them uncomfortable. You have to be prepared to shout from the outside as well as from the inside.<\/p>\n<p>We now have courts making statements about reconciliation, about the rights of Indigenous people, about self-government, that they would never have been able to say 50 or more years ago. And they believe in it.<\/p>\n<h4><span class=\"ez-toc-section\" id=\"Q_Are_you_hopeful_that_there_is_enough_pressure_now_for_the_hard_policy_work_to_happen\"><\/span>Q: Are you hopeful that there is enough pressure now for the hard policy work to happen?<span class=\"ez-toc-section-end\"><\/span><\/h4>\n<p><strong>A:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think there\u2019s enough, but I think the pressure has increased. I think the difficulty that I have always seen with regard to the government\u2019s approach to the TRC calls to action, and the UN declaration, and the whole question of reconciliation, has been that they don\u2019t have a map. The government of Canada has never developed a plan of action about how they are going to achieve reconciliation. They do not hold their system accountable for achieving reconciliation.<\/p>\n<p>To be fair, they did exactly that when they were establishing the residential school system. They would have an overall objective, and they would have steps on how to get there and they would follow those steps religiously.<\/p>\n<h4><span class=\"ez-toc-section\" id=\"Q_Its_a_sad_state_of_affairs_if_youre_calling_on_the_government_to_be_as_efficient_about_reconciliation_as_it_was_about_assimilation\"><\/span>Q: It\u2019s a sad state of affairs if you\u2019re calling on the government to be as efficient about reconciliation as it was about assimilation.<span class=\"ez-toc-section-end\"><\/span><\/h4>\n<p><strong>A:\u00a0<\/strong>That\u2019ll be a good title for your article.<\/p>\n<hr\/>\n<p><em>This interview appears in print in the September 2021 issue of<\/em> Maclean\u2019s <em>magazine. Subscribe to the monthly print magazine <a rel=\"nofollow noopener\" target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/secure.macleans.ca\/loc\/MME\/head_subscribe\">here<\/a>.<\/em><br \/>\n<span class=\"ctx-article-root\"><!-- --><\/span>\n                            <\/div>\n<p><script async defer crossorigin=\"anonymous\" src=\"https:\/\/connect.facebook.net\/en_US\/sdk.js\"><\/script><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff6600;\">If you liked the article, do not forget to share it with your friends. Follow us on\u00a0<span style=\"color: #ff0000;\"><a style=\"color: #ff0000;\" href=\"https:\/\/news.google.com\/publications\/CAAqBwgKMLG0nwswvr63Aw\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow noopener noreferrer\">Google News<\/a><\/span>\u00a0too, click on the star and choose us from your favorites.<\/span><\/strong><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<blockquote>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">For forums sites go to <span style=\"color: #ff9900;\"><a style=\"color: #ff9900;\" href=\"https:\/\/forum.buradabiliyorum.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Forum.BuradaBiliyorum.Com<\/a><\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<blockquote>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><strong>If you want to read more <a href=\"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/category\/news\/\" data-internallinksmanager029f6b8e52c=\"2\" title=\"News\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">News<\/a> articles, you can visit our <span style=\"color: #ff9900;\"><a style=\"color: #ff9900;\" href=\"https:\/\/en.buradabiliyorum.com\/general\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">General category.<\/a><\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"color: black;\"><a style=\"color: #ff9900;\" href=\"https:\/\/www.macleans.ca\/longforms\/murray-sinclair-on-reconciliation-anger-unmarked-graves-and-a-headline-for-this-story\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Source<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>&#8220;#Murray Sinclair on reconciliation, anger, unmarked graves\u2014and a headline for this story&#8221; I caught up with Murray Sinclair, the former chairman of the Indian Residential Schools Truth and Reconciliation Commission, in the midst of a national reckoning over this summer\u2019s discovery of hundreds of gravesites where Indigenous children are believed to be buried. Sinclair has&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":327439,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"fifu_image_url":"https:\/\/www.macleans.ca\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/08\/MURRAY-SINCLAIR-SMITH-01_longform_crop-766x431.jpeg","fifu_image_alt":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[67806,114533,86866,103541,91359,112092],"class_list":["post-327438","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-general","tag-editors-picks","tag-indigenous-affairs","tag-murray-sinclair","tag-the-interview","tag-truth-and-reconciliation","tag-unmarked-graves"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/327438","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=327438"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/327438\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/327439"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=327438"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=327438"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/buradabiliyorum.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=327438"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}